Take a car with an internal combustion engine and replace everything that is needed for an electric car. Now you have a no-nonsense car.
Instead, we have a rolling data center that feels like a smartphone.
you’re starting too far down the line
most vehicles nowadays are gimmicks
the real question is why can’t we get a simple economical vehicle and not unrepairable subcription-based spyware on wheels with dangerous features, regardless of engine type
You’re starting too far down the line.
Most products and services nowadays are gimmicks.
The real question is why can’t we get a simple good product and not inequitable take-it-or-leave it bullshit with delusional prices, regardless of where.
I mean when it comes to price it’s because the US banned chinese car companies. If BYD was allowed to sell here it would destroy these overpriced domestic manufacturers. They’re still annoyingly “smart” but they’re atleast not expensive as all hell.
Actually your recipe for an electric car is what US manufacturers tried to do because it didn’t require as much retooling. Turns out it is a pretty bad way to make an electric vehicle from scratch. The batteries are big and heavy and need their own space. The best place is in the bottom for weight distribution but instead they had to cram them in the existing engine compartment along with the motor. It’s just not as good as designing it to be electric from the ground up. Most of them were compromised and thus didn’t sell well.
Regarding the rolling data center, that’s actually a different problem that applies to pretty much all new cars. There is a growing backlash against all of these features (and lack of buttons). Unfortunately, it kind of falls on deaf ears. I think this is why US manufacturers are scared of Chinese EVs. They take a more practical view of the vehicle. Although, I don’t actually know how much spying these Chinese vehicles do. It wouldn’t be like the Chinese to miss that opportunity.
There’s a startup that is making a totally bare bones car called Slate. I really don’t understand why every car has an ipad when I just need a place for my phone and it will accomplish the same thing (minus a back up camera which I find completely unnecessary).
In the US, backup cameras are mandated by law as a safety feature. It’s not an “add-on” or perk like some automakers try to imply.
Same with front end collision avoidance cameras/sensors. Those need to be in all cars manufactured for the US market by 2029.
The problem is they have over done it. To add just one little thing you want boosts the price into the range of say a Chevy Bolt, which is a much more polished vehicle. But I do like the look and the idea. The fact that Amazon (or was it just Bezos?) is involved is as little troubling.
Seems hard to justify $25k for Slate (if you add absolutely nothing to it) vs. something from an established automaker for a similar price. For example, I think the Ford Fathom will also ship in 2027 (same year as Slate) for <$30k.
I love Slate, but there’s something (perhaps irrational) in my psychology that blocks me from paying $25k for a vehicle with manual-crank windows. I remember what it’s like to reach across the cab to awkwardly roll up a window that a passenger left open. I paid <$1k for those old beater vehicles.
I actually agree. I think power mirrors and power windows are very worthwhile.
On the other hand, I don’t know why anyone wants a trunk or hatch that closes itself. I find them annoying and unnecessary.
Jeff Bezos is one of their prime investors and is selling you a vehicle that requires you to plug your phone into it directly in order to function.
As cool as the rest of the idea sounds that makes it an instant and permanent non-starter for me.
Less spying is absolutely not why US manufacturers are scared of Chinese EVs, it’s cheap labor and long term state backing. I have a bridge to sell to anyone who thinks Chinese EVs aren’t spying, hahaha
I’d rather have China spy on me than US corporations or state. I don’t live in China and have no fear that their surveillance will result in a fascist goon at my doorstep.
That’s where I’m at. What’s China realistically going to do with that data?? If I’m going to be spied on no matter what I’d rather have it be done by a country across the world and get a reasonably priced EV too.
Sell it to the same people that ford and everyone else are, so it can be used to fuck you over on jobs, insurance, etc etc.
Ok but how is that different than the American companies doing that exact same thing?? At least if China gets my data I’ll get a reasonably priced EV out of it instead of paying 4-5 times the price for a similar product.
I fucking love how people scream about how vile and evil a thing is, until china does it, then its either “plz leib poor china alone” or its “yes its evil, but i dont care because its cheaper… but don’t worry, as soon as it bites me in the ass i’ll come back to cry about it, and will expect sympathy and coddling and not i told you so’s”
I fucking love how people misinterpret comments to fit their own made-up narratives in their head.
My data is going to be sold no matter if I buy American or Chinese. It is a bad thing either way. In one scenario im paying $15k for the EV. In the other scenario im paying $30k.
Stop shadow boxing comments to feel good about yourself.
Sure, there’s absolutely no way that data from China can end up in the US. Even if offered money, you can trust that no data collector in China would ever accept money in exchange for user data. Also, they’re all excellent at keeping it secure, so rest assured it will never get leaked!
Oh yeah if I buy American there’s no way my data would get sold. American companies are known for their solid moral compass and they put customer satisfaction over profits. And there’s never been a data breach from an American company ever!! :D
And i want to be a good American consumer and pay an American car company 4x to 5x the price of the cheap and affordable Chinese EV. Since I got all this money from tariff rebate and doge checks I can afford to buy an American EV.
Then you’re an idiot.
because that information is gonna end up in the same markets as the information from anywhere else, and its going to fuck you over in the long term.
You’re too obsessed with government jackboots coming to your door to even consider your car and health insurance premiums skyrocketing at best, or getting dropped at worst, because your driving data was sold to them and they decided you were too much a risk despite a clean driving record.
and thats only a small example of what can be done with this data. it could affect a lot more as companies try to analyze you and your actions and catagorize you. or even better, explode your phone with advertising with every store you’re driving past.
I mean, I’d rather not be spied on at all, but at least a Chinese collector has to find an American buyer, whereas the American collector is the American buyer. But I agree with you, mass surveillance is bad no matter who is doing it.
I really doubt needing to find an American buyer is a barrier. Plenty of Chinese companies have become very good at finding American consumers. TikTok and Temu, for examples. (Or Alibaba, as a huge B2B example.)
Well… Yes.
yeah but I’d rather China spy on me than an actively hostile nation that’s a greater threat to me
either way, not buying a car like that
I have actually converted an old diesel land rover to electric. NDA so I can’t disclose the company, but we replaced the transmission with an electric motor that had an adapter plate to the original transfer case. The engine was replaced with a large battery pack and some electric pumps, handfull of heat exchangers. As you said, converting is never as good. A big heavy pack where the motor was makes it more front heavy than with the diesel 4 cylinder, range was about 120 miles which is pretty piss poor compared to what it could do with the diesel powertrain. It was very cool in theory, but not a practical vehicle. Another company has done a different ev conversion on some of the LR’s and they used a Tesla drivetrain if I’m not mistaken, and had to split up the battery pack and spread it across 3 different locations in the vehicle. Purpose built evs are definatley the way for packaging, although repowering classics that only get tooled around here and there to get ice cream or go golfing on the weekend is a neat concept. The weight distribution of the components is just so different from an ice that it necessitates a ground up design. Electric motors are far lighter than ice engines, but they need FAR more weight in battery packs than a tank of fuel for comparable range so u cant exactly just replace the fuel tank with a battery pack and expect it to go far.
why would such work require an nda?
Because the company that “builds” the ev converted vehicle actually just designs and sources parts + the vehicle, our shop is the one that actually built them (at least for the USA based clients). I’m not sure the buyer knows it was done by us or not, I’m sure it doesn’t much matter. There’s only a handful of companies that offer this so it wouldnt be too hard for u to narrow it down to a couple!
Ah. So it’s kind of a secret that they don’t do their own work…
Is it just fancy and expensive cars that do this? I have an old hatchback I’d like to convert, but otherwise it would go to the scrapyard.
Unfortunately the components and labor time make it very cost prohibitive to have somebody do it for you, the only way it makes any financial sense to me is if your capable of doing the conversion yourself. The company we built some evs for only does them for fairly expensive classics so they are not chasing affordability, and for the money u can get a much better ev. With these people ur paying to have a bespoke electrified classic, not necessarily a prectical ev. As the other comment response to you stated a small unibody is very had to convert, and honestly would probably makes more sense to put a more efficient ice engine in. Fwd cars usually have low floor pans so nowhere to put batteries besides in place of the fuel tank or in the engine bay. Then you need to consider how the wheels will get powered, and you start getting into custom machined parts and the cost starts to jump. This is one of those things where it’s a lot easier if somebody has already done it, if your the first on a specific platform your going to have to design ur own systems and parts to make it possible. For example your fwd hatchback doesn’t have a transfer case we can make an adapter plate for and bolt an electric motor to, and most small case fwd transaxles can’t handle the torque of an electric motor so just bolting it to the transmission may not work or last long. It can get pretty complicated pretty quick, not that internal combustion engines necessarily simpler, but the ecosystem they need is already in the car and the cars already been designed around it. Ev drivetrains are also pretty heavy so starting with a small light car is difficult, roll center and center of gravity will be affected, weight added. It may snowball into needing stiffer suspension, larger brakes etc and the car certainly won’t drive the way it did before. Hate to say it but the cost of a custom converversion is likely going to be more than the cost of a slate truck or something lol.
Not the same guy, but I’ve been around a DIY conversion. You can do it to any vehicle you want, but some make more sense than others. Assuming your ‘old hatchback’ is 80s-90s, probably not a great fit. Like he said the whole thing is really a packaging problem, and that’s gonna be rough on a unibody compact. Older, bigger stuff is easier, and I probably wouldn’t bother with something that wasn’t body on frame. The one I observed myself was a 2000-ish Ford Ranger, and that worked out really well. Two large rectangular battery boxes parallel with the driveshaft between the frame rails under the bed, motor in place of engine, controllers etc in extra space under hood. Total cost ~10k, hours hard to guess but a good winter’s worth of weekends
For the laughs, look up Ford Fusion Energi [sic]. It’s a PHEV retrofit, so it has a plug, very short EV range (12 miles? - that is if you can make it run in EV mode), but the best part is the trunk - the entirety of it is taken up by the battery, with enough space for maybe a briefcase, not even a bag of groceries.
Show me a single non-EV car for sale that doesn’t raise all the same objections
Why should I buy a non-electric car? I think my question got misunderstood.
Their point is that you are just nostalgic for old cars, simpler cars. All modern cars are overcomplicated, EV or not
yes, but a lot of that overcomplication is for safety at least.
you’re much more likely to survive a big car crash in a car from today, then are you are from a car 60 years ago.
Also less likely to lose traction on wet roads and skid off than you were half a century ago.
that isnt meant to say everythings sunshine and roses, like all that equipment that enables spyware bullshit they gather on you and sell to insurance companies and marketers.
the problem is the cars have stopped being a product, and have become a medium to turn you into the product. Which is becoming a problem across many industries and the items they wish you to own.
Better crumple zones and airbags are most of the advances in safety compared to 60 years ago. Traction control and anti-lock brakes are pretty rad too. Automatic braking and lane assist account for some though I think they’re a net detriment, training drivers to be less attentive (this is somewhat supported by the rise in pedestrian deaths).
All the spyware and extra shit is pure downside. Mandatory internal face tracking is fucking maddening and I shan’t be cooperating with such overreach. Nothing newer than like 2014, maybe an import from a different market without them.
I think it’s a salient point: It’s not just EVs. The entire industry has gone whole-hog on the “rolling data center” model.
As to “why” from your post title…well, I assumed it was a rhetorical question to introduce a (short) rant about the sad state of the automobile market.
no reason! I had a 2017 BMW i3 for five years and now going on five years with a 2022 Taycan wagon, I’m all for BEVs!
It’s just that no new cars, regardless of powertrain, are available without the “smart” shit
Cars getting more expensive is in all car companies’ interests.
They’re getting cheaper actually. The gigantic touchscreen is cheaper than a bespoke interior design with physical buttons for every model.
Of course that’s not reflected in the price
cheaper for the car maker, not for the end consumer.
That’s one part of the system.
My FIL has a 2021 Smart ForFour EV that’s as barebones as it gets. No screen, buttons and knobs for the climate control, popout rear windows AND an actual key you have to put into an actual hole.
It also looks like manufacturers are catching on and making EVs for normal people. Renault. Kia and Hyundai all have nice selections plus some of the Chinese models from Leap and BYD.
So it’s definitely getting better on the EV front.
Chinese companies are exporting basic EVs like you’re talking about that sell for like $15k. Sadly if you’re American you can’t buy one because Freedom!!!
They sell for $15k in China, but you can’t compare those prices. Canada and Australia have allowed Chinese EV imports, nothing is below $40K in Canada, Australia has the BYD Atto, at $20k, but it’s a cheaply built car, likely disposable.
You’re right, the foreign prices are higher because of tariffs and other govt fees, shipping, storage, etc. and markups added by dealers because they can. But the end prices tend to be 25-30% less than other EVs with similar basic specs (minus frills).
deleted by creator
I have a BYD dolphin and it’s great!
Mostly because they can. You really need to have everything automated anyway, you need at least a backup screen, so you might as well put it on that screen. It’s probably cheaper at that point to control everything by screen than to do install buttons
There’s still some hope
I have never bought a new car and never had any intention to because of how bad of an investment they are. If slate comes through with half the features they’ve announced, then I’ll be buying one after my 2013 Subaru Outback gives out. I play music and do lots of small rural work just outside of the city. A small truck for hauling would be perfect! I don’t want a Superlift Mega Child Crusher x4500 with double crew cab, a bed 7ft off the ground and only 34 inches long, but hey, at least it has 15,000 pounds of towing capacity for when I am hauling my drum set across town or need to take plywood to my mom’s house.
I’ve spent the last year teasing my older brother for buying a full sized truck, now that he no longer has a house or property. Joke is on me though, he just bought a huge camper to tow with it. I guess he does have use, at least a couple days of the year
my third gen Outback isn’t worth anything, so it’s becoming my truck
-
can haul 8ft lengths of material inside the vehicle
-
can haul 16ft lengths of material with only 5ft of stick out
-
can tow a utility trailer
-
has ground clearance and AWD for rough terrain
only drawback is it’s got a low ceiling, affecting cargo height. but that’s also an inherent feature of a wagon, and why I don’t like newer Outbacks that aren’t wagons
I’ve looked at small trucks like an old Ford/Mazda Ranger in the past, but it doesn’t make sense for me - I’d rather have the rear seats for the dogs and enclosed space connected to the cabin than a bed topper
I’m usually just driving myself and my son. It’s pretty uncommon that I need to move 3 or more people, and if I do, I can almost certainly borrow a car, so no loss there.
The ceiling height and no ability to “hang stuff over the side” - for lack of a better term - are both issues for me as well. It’s solved easily enough with a small trailer that I can pull with a hitch I had put on, but it is annoying to deal with.
I’m trying to avoid the danger of “oh! But sometimes” that the YouTuber “Tech Connections” talks about in some videos, but I think I’ve discovered a small 2 seater truck would fit me better than anything else. A kei truck could be a good fit for me as well, but I don’t know a whole lot about any specific model.
I love my small steel trailer. it’s light enough that I can move it by hand, so I don’t need to mess around with trying to back up my long wagon with a short trailer behind me into my driveway or into awkward spaces. just unhitch and push it where I need it to go. super easy to park next to my driveway as well, without needing to drive on my lawn. I think it’s actually easier to hook up my trailer than it is to put my bike rack on the hitch lol, because I have my bike rack hanging awkwardly at the back of the garage in a tough to reach spot
although to be honest I do wish it were aluminum so I didn’t have to worry about rust
-
This is like the System 76 of cars.
They do. Or least they sometimes do. I drive a Kia Soul EV. It’s… a Kia Soul with an electric motor and battery instead of all the internal combustion stuff.
KIA is one of the worst offenders regarding continuous surveillance and then selling the data to third parties.
A tip for others:
To ensure your driving data (like braking habits or speed metrics) is completely decoupled from third-party data brokers and insurance exchanges:
• App Settings: Open the Kia Access mobile app, navigate to Account Settings / Privacy, and opt out of all data-sharing programs (specifically anything tied to “Driver Score” or Usage-Based Insurance
You lost me at “App” I would rather ride a pedal bike than drive a car that has a fucking app.
Haven’t souls been discontinued?
Yeah. I was merely noting that there’s a precedent for “normal-car-but-with-EV-stuff-instead.” It’s a shame that the Soul EV was given such a limited distribution. It’s easily my favorite car I’ve ever owned.
These definitely exist. They are typically referred to as ‘compliance cars’ - i.e. the manufacturer is obligated, usually by regulations, to produce an EV, but they don’t want to spend money designing a new platform for it - so they take an existing model, rip out the engine, cram a motor and batteries wherever they will fit and call it good. Examples: Volkswagen eGolf, Fiat 500e, Mercedes B Class EV. Ford Focus Electric…
However, doing this means you are constrained to the shape of the combustion vehicle it is based on. So the aerodynamics may not be optimal to get the best range, you may have a transmission tunnel taking up space in the interior that is no longer necessary, directly swapping the position of the engine and the motor/inverter means you lose the opportunity to repurpose the front of the car for additional storage - ultimately it ends up compromised in one way or another.
If on the other hand you design the platform from the ground up to handle an electric drivetrain then all of these points can be taken into account.
(And regarding cars in general becoming rolling computers: this is not an EV specific issue, unfortunately.)
The trick is to drive a 20 year old car. I’ve got zero interest in new cars - I wouldn’t want one even for free. Every time I have to drive one I get extremely frustrated by all the pointless features that I have no use for and are just acting as a distraction. Hell, I almost hit a cyclist once because the car wouldn’t let me cross the centre line.
The day my truck dies I’ll just buy another identical one and keep the old one as parts truck. It has everything I need and nothing I don’t… …except automatic wipers.
So three issues.
An ICE drivetrain is a certain size and shape- you have a big lump of engine under the hood, a fat cigar of a transmission under the center of the car, a gas tank in the back, etc.
An EV drivetrain has a VERY DIFFERENT size and shape- the entire battery and drive system is essentially a skateboard on top of which you can build the rest of the car.So you can’t just take an ICE car and swap out the ICE for batteries and motor. The whole car needs a redesign. And if you’re making the car for modern, tech-savvy buyers, why would you make a boring old low-tech car?
Second- EVERY car is turning into a rolling datacenter like a smartphone. Try to buy a base model car with no screen and manual windows or whatever- it doesn’t exist anymore in many brands. Automakers go for the high profit items, and that’s NOT the base models.
Third- a lot of the tech is now mandatory. Backup cameras, and soon driver attention monitoring among other things.
Sad thing is- I think there’s a demand for it, if the price is right. If getting rid of most of the tech dropped $10-20k off the sticker price I think whoever tried it would sell millions. I’m not sure you’re allowed to anymore though.
Seems like Slate can get by with everything removed but airbags. And the price is right.
And the price is right.
Starting at $25k, it’s really not a great price :/. Seems like it’ll be hard to compete with options like the Ford Fathom. EVs aren’t as expensive as they used to be.
I love the Slate, and I hope to own one someday, but I’d probably shop for one that’s a few years old.
I was super interested in the Slate until I realized it can’t tow shit. I don’t need anything crazy. An old S10 tows plenty for me. But not being able to tow a thing and being a truck is just a no go for me.
If the Fathom is 20k but has all the spyware we’ve come to expect from major manufacturers, I’d still buy the Slate. It annoys me that Bezos is involved, but I’d swallow that for some privacy in a new vehicle.
Yeah that’s understandable. I pay more for auto insurance because I don’t give them my data, so I get that. Hopefully this niche market will be big enough for Slate to survive.
Elon Musk started a grift in 2012 that EVs should be expensive. To try and add value to what is a less expensive car to produce, he added a plethora of gimmickry and US consumers love gadgetry. By 2022, battery prices plunged 90% and Teslas were the highest profit margin vehicles in the industry.
Detroit watched all this and decided to to the same thing, but Detroit had too many “luxury” models and after pandemic gouging, customers kept away. No one bought their EVs. Stellantis lost $80B in value and has 430,000 unsold cars sitting on lots right now, rotting.
This all pushed customers to Korean brands, as Detroit decided they had no interest in affordability. Boom times for Honda, Kia/Hyundai and Toyota.
I can’t believe I’m about to defend Elon Musk.
Prior to Tesla, the very few EVs that existed were dopey-looking and had no range. Tesla’s founders (not Elon) realized that lithium battery technology made an actually-good EV possible. They made the Roadster, which was expensive and impressively fast but barebones. Elon horned his way in and took the company on this strategy path: sell that expensive car to create and sell a more mass-market, slightly less expensive car. Then use the money from that car to make an even cheaper mass-market car. That was the Model S/X, and then the Model 3/Y, respectively. It wasn’t that this fancy shit was some sham to trick people, it was what a small barely-funded company had to do. It worked out pretty well until they lost the plot a few years ago.
Making a software-defined car does have its benefits too: adding functionality, detecting issues before you get stranded by a breakdown, an improved infotainment experience. You can argue about the merits of those, but realize that the whole industry does this now - for better or worse. But to say that Tesla tricked people into wasting their money on gee-whiz tech is a dishonest representation of EV history.
By 2022, battery prices plunged 90% and Teslas were the highest profit margin vehicles in the industry.
This plunge in battery prices happened specifically because of Tesla making EVs mass-market.
Legacy auto fumbling the EV transition is due entirely to their hubris and incompetence.
That being said, Elon Musk is a Nazi just like Henry Ford before him.
Then use the money from that car to make an even cheaper mass-market car. That was the Model S/X,
Just to nitpick, the gull-wing doors on the Model X were neither cheap nor practical. They were a really dumb expensive idea
Agree. But I think my point is still legit.
Well, yeah. There’s a reason I didn’t critique anything else
At least in the silicon valley I think they got a jump from the “cool” factor over everything else that could use the HOV lane. A good friend of mine was working for a company and the SVP had I think a Bentley and a top of the line 911 but drove a Prius to work every day purely to use the HOV lane. That type of person was more than happy to buy a 6 figure S to ditch his Prius…
Because cars, and especially evs, are units of luxury. Luxury don’t have to be reasonable or convenient - au contraire many luxurious items were made inconvenient on purpose.
Automakers just don’t build cheap, reliable, serviceable cars.
Because 99% of car buyers want gimmicks. I’m driving a 2014 with manual trans, manual windows, and no cruise control.
What market exists for this?I’m curious. What car made in 2014 has manual windows? I have a 1988 Corolla and it has power windows.
Lol behold:
Wow. So it does exist. I’m more surprised about the manual transmission than the windows, to be honest. My wife and I both only drive two door manuals.
My man, same 🤝
Kia Rio, BMW coupe, 350Z --> all manual
1988 Toyota Corolla GTS, 1999 Toyota Solara V6 SE, 2003 Toyota MR2 Spyder (just sold it after 20 years), 2020 Hyundai Velocter N (technically a 3 door, but it looks like two from the driver’s side, LOL.
Not a Toyota fan boy, just coincidence.
All excellent choices.
Have you driven an Elantra N? Such a good car.No, but I love the Veloster. Despite it’s performance, it’s quite practical, being a hatchback.
A ford lightning is almost identical to a f-150.
Shame they discontinued it.
Yeah, the Silverado EV is pretty similar. Shame it costs an insane amount of cash.
Maybe no one really wants a 9,000 pound truck, nor to pay for a battery 2-3x the size of car batteries. Not only does the battery add a huge cost but they had to know there would never be any volume …. And that’s across all three Silverado, Hummer and whatever the gmc badge is
I would buy one if I were in a position for a new vehicle. I drive a combustion Silverado for hauling metal, but it’s just now being paid off. Once I run it into the ground I world love to have an EV equivalent. It has a ton of range and the Silverado actually have a volume knob lol. But I’d very much like to avoid spending $100k, having a car payment for the last 6 years wasn’t great 😕
Yeah it’s hard to believe spending that much on a vehicle. I mean, sure there are wealthy people but most of us arent
The Lightning really needed to be an HEV. Enough battery to move the truck around 100 miles per day for commuting, but switch to gas when hauling. It would have significantly reduced the need for the giant battery, and therefore reduce cost for the customer
No one bought them. They had to dump them with heavy discounts.
