Take a car with an internal combustion engine and replace everything that is needed for an electric car. Now you have a no-nonsense car.
Instead, we have a rolling data center that feels like a smartphone.
you’re starting too far down the line
most vehicles nowadays are gimmicks
the real question is why can’t we get a simple economical vehicle and not unrepairable subcription-based spyware on wheels with dangerous features, regardless of engine type
I mean when it comes to price it’s because the US banned chinese car companies. If BYD was allowed to sell here it would destroy these overpriced domestic manufacturers. They’re still annoyingly “smart” but they’re atleast not expensive as all hell.
You’re starting too far down the line.
Most products and services nowadays are gimmicks.
The real question is why can’t we get a simple good product and not inequitable take-it-or-leave it bullshit with delusional prices, regardless of where.
My FIL has a 2021 Smart ForFour EV that’s as barebones as it gets. No screen, buttons and knobs for the climate control, popout rear windows AND an actual key you have to put into an actual hole.
It also looks like manufacturers are catching on and making EVs for normal people. Renault. Kia and Hyundai all have nice selections plus some of the Chinese models from Leap and BYD.
So it’s definitely getting better on the EV front.
These definitely exist. They are typically referred to as ‘compliance cars’ - i.e. the manufacturer is obligated, usually by regulations, to produce an EV, but they don’t want to spend money designing a new platform for it - so they take an existing model, rip out the engine, cram a motor and batteries wherever they will fit and call it good. Examples: Volkswagen eGolf, Fiat 500e, Mercedes B Class EV. Ford Focus Electric…
However, doing this means you are constrained to the shape of the combustion vehicle it is based on. So the aerodynamics may not be optimal to get the best range, you may have a transmission tunnel taking up space in the interior that is no longer necessary, directly swapping the position of the engine and the motor/inverter means you lose the opportunity to repurpose the front of the car for additional storage - ultimately it ends up compromised in one way or another.
If on the other hand you design the platform from the ground up to handle an electric drivetrain then all of these points can be taken into account.
(And regarding cars in general becoming rolling computers: this is not an EV specific issue, unfortunately.)
Interesting, I chose my specific EV because it’s gimmicky…
So you acknowledge it doesnt offer value equivalent to what you paid?
Dacia Spring ?
Dacia is usually pretty much bare bones
In ICE cars the base models/brands are no nonsense and you get more of gimmicks as you move up the pricelist. EVs start much higher on the pricelist so they have to include some gimmicks by default to not feel a total ripoff.
In Europe Volkswagen has 3 brands that sell cars built on same platform but they are positioned in three market segments. This made sense for ICE because pricing and features progression worked while parts were shared. Now their EV lineup cost basically the same across all brands because the baseline is so high.
So three issues.
An ICE drivetrain is a certain size and shape- you have a big lump of engine under the hood, a fat cigar of a transmission under the center of the car, a gas tank in the back, etc.
An EV drivetrain has a VERY DIFFERENT size and shape- the entire battery and drive system is essentially a skateboard on top of which you can build the rest of the car.So you can’t just take an ICE car and swap out the ICE for batteries and motor. The whole car needs a redesign. And if you’re making the car for modern, tech-savvy buyers, why would you make a boring old low-tech car?
Second- EVERY car is turning into a rolling datacenter like a smartphone. Try to buy a base model car with no screen and manual windows or whatever- it doesn’t exist anymore in many brands. Automakers go for the high profit items, and that’s NOT the base models.
Third- a lot of the tech is now mandatory. Backup cameras, and soon driver attention monitoring among other things.
Sad thing is- I think there’s a demand for it, if the price is right. If getting rid of most of the tech dropped $10-20k off the sticker price I think whoever tried it would sell millions. I’m not sure you’re allowed to anymore though.
Seems like Slate can get by with everything removed but airbags. And the price is right.
And the price is right.
Starting at $25k, it’s really not a great price :/. Seems like it’ll be hard to compete with options like the Ford Fathom. EVs aren’t as expensive as they used to be.
I love the Slate, and I hope to own one someday, but I’d probably shop for one that’s a few years old.
If the Fathom is 20k but has all the spyware we’ve come to expect from major manufacturers, I’d still buy the Slate. It annoys me that Bezos is involved, but I’d swallow that for some privacy in a new vehicle.
Yeah that’s understandable. I pay more for auto insurance because I don’t give them my data, so I get that. Hopefully this niche market will be big enough for Slate to survive.
I was super interested in the Slate until I realized it can’t tow shit. I don’t need anything crazy. An old S10 tows plenty for me. But not being able to tow a thing and being a truck is just a no go for me.
Driving a kia e-niro. There’s nothing gimmicky about it except for the melody that plays when you start the car. Everything else is pretty much down to earth regular car stuff. And with a price below 40k, in 2021, I think it wasn’t even that expensive for a EV.
EV have hit 25k now. I think to hit 15k they’ll be throwing out these gimmicks with gusto. Gimmicks are to show off the price
Cars getting more expensive is in all car companies’ interests.
They’re getting cheaper actually. The gigantic touchscreen is cheaper than a bespoke interior design with physical buttons for every model.
Of course that’s not reflected in the price
cheaper for the car maker, not for the end consumer.
That’s one part of the system.
In the home electronics store I nearly asked if they had any TVs that weren’t smart, nearly.
There are those cars, of course. But they are less common in your country.
Show me a single non-EV car for sale that doesn’t raise all the same objections
Why should I buy a non-electric car? I think my question got misunderstood.
Their point is that you are just nostalgic for old cars, simpler cars. All modern cars are overcomplicated, EV or not
yes, but a lot of that overcomplication is for safety at least.
you’re much more likely to survive a big car crash in a car from today, then are you are from a car 60 years ago.
Also less likely to lose traction on wet roads and skid off than you were half a century ago.
that isnt meant to say everythings sunshine and roses, like all that equipment that enables spyware bullshit they gather on you and sell to insurance companies and marketers.
the problem is the cars have stopped being a product, and have become a medium to turn you into the product. Which is becoming a problem across many industries and the items they wish you to own.
Better crumple zones and airbags are most of the advances in safety compared to 60 years ago. Traction control and anti-lock brakes are pretty rad too. Automatic braking and lane assist account for some though I think they’re a net detriment, training drivers to be less attentive (this is somewhat supported by the rise in pedestrian deaths).
All the spyware and extra shit is pure downside. Mandatory internal face tracking is fucking maddening and I shan’t be cooperating with such overreach. Nothing newer than like 2014, maybe an import from a different market without them.
I think it’s a salient point: It’s not just EVs. The entire industry has gone whole-hog on the “rolling data center” model.
As to “why” from your post title…well, I assumed it was a rhetorical question to introduce a (short) rant about the sad state of the automobile market.
no reason! I had a 2017 BMW i3 for five years and now going on five years with a 2022 Taycan wagon, I’m all for BEVs!
It’s just that no new cars, regardless of powertrain, are available without the “smart” shit
They do. Or least they sometimes do. I drive a Kia Soul EV. It’s… a Kia Soul with an electric motor and battery instead of all the internal combustion stuff.
Haven’t souls been discontinued?
Yeah. I was merely noting that there’s a precedent for “normal-car-but-with-EV-stuff-instead.” It’s a shame that the Soul EV was given such a limited distribution. It’s easily my favorite car I’ve ever owned.
KIA is one of the worst offenders regarding continuous surveillance and then selling the data to third parties.
A tip for others:
To ensure your driving data (like braking habits or speed metrics) is completely decoupled from third-party data brokers and insurance exchanges:
• App Settings: Open the Kia Access mobile app, navigate to Account Settings / Privacy, and opt out of all data-sharing programs (specifically anything tied to “Driver Score” or Usage-Based Insurance
You lost me at “App” I would rather ride a pedal bike than drive a car that has a fucking app.
Actually your recipe for an electric car is what US manufacturers tried to do because it didn’t require as much retooling. Turns out it is a pretty bad way to make an electric vehicle from scratch. The batteries are big and heavy and need their own space. The best place is in the bottom for weight distribution but instead they had to cram them in the existing engine compartment along with the motor. It’s just not as good as designing it to be electric from the ground up. Most of them were compromised and thus didn’t sell well.
Regarding the rolling data center, that’s actually a different problem that applies to pretty much all new cars. There is a growing backlash against all of these features (and lack of buttons). Unfortunately, it kind of falls on deaf ears. I think this is why US manufacturers are scared of Chinese EVs. They take a more practical view of the vehicle. Although, I don’t actually know how much spying these Chinese vehicles do. It wouldn’t be like the Chinese to miss that opportunity.
There’s a startup that is making a totally bare bones car called Slate. I really don’t understand why every car has an ipad when I just need a place for my phone and it will accomplish the same thing (minus a back up camera which I find completely unnecessary).
The problem is they have over done it. To add just one little thing you want boosts the price into the range of say a Chevy Bolt, which is a much more polished vehicle. But I do like the look and the idea. The fact that Amazon (or was it just Bezos?) is involved is as little troubling.
Seems hard to justify $25k for Slate (if you add absolutely nothing to it) vs. something from an established automaker for a similar price. For example, I think the Ford Fathom will also ship in 2027 (same year as Slate) for <$30k.
I love Slate, but there’s something (perhaps irrational) in my psychology that blocks me from paying $25k for a vehicle with manual-crank windows. I remember what it’s like to reach across the cab to awkwardly roll up a window that a passenger left open. I paid <$1k for those old beater vehicles.
Jeff Bezos is one of their prime investors and is selling you a vehicle that requires you to plug your phone into it directly in order to function.
As cool as the rest of the idea sounds that makes it an instant and permanent non-starter for me.
In the US, backup cameras are mandated by law as a safety feature. It’s not an “add-on” or perk like some automakers try to imply.
Same with front end collision avoidance cameras/sensors. Those need to be in all cars manufactured for the US market by 2029.
Less spying is absolutely not why US manufacturers are scared of Chinese EVs, it’s cheap labor and long term state backing. I have a bridge to sell to anyone who thinks Chinese EVs aren’t spying, hahaha
yeah but I’d rather China spy on me than an actively hostile nation that’s a greater threat to me
either way, not buying a car like that
I’d rather have China spy on me than US corporations or state. I don’t live in China and have no fear that their surveillance will result in a fascist goon at my doorstep.
Then you’re an idiot.
because that information is gonna end up in the same markets as the information from anywhere else, and its going to fuck you over in the long term.
You’re too obsessed with government jackboots coming to your door to even consider your car and health insurance premiums skyrocketing at best, or getting dropped at worst, because your driving data was sold to them and they decided you were too much a risk despite a clean driving record.
and thats only a small example of what can be done with this data. it could affect a lot more as companies try to analyze you and your actions and catagorize you. or even better, explode your phone with advertising with every store you’re driving past.
I mean, I’d rather not be spied on at all, but at least a Chinese collector has to find an American buyer, whereas the American collector is the American buyer. But I agree with you, mass surveillance is bad no matter who is doing it.
I really doubt needing to find an American buyer is a barrier. Plenty of Chinese companies have become very good at finding American consumers. TikTok and Temu, for examples. (Or Alibaba, as a huge B2B example.)
That’s where I’m at. What’s China realistically going to do with that data?? If I’m going to be spied on no matter what I’d rather have it be done by a country across the world and get a reasonably priced EV too.
Sure, there’s absolutely no way that data from China can end up in the US. Even if offered money, you can trust that no data collector in China would ever accept money in exchange for user data. Also, they’re all excellent at keeping it secure, so rest assured it will never get leaked!
Sell it to the same people that ford and everyone else are, so it can be used to fuck you over on jobs, insurance, etc etc.
Well… Yes.
For the laughs, look up Ford Fusion Energi [sic]. It’s a PHEV retrofit, so it has a plug, very short EV range (12 miles? - that is if you can make it run in EV mode), but the best part is the trunk - the entirety of it is taken up by the battery, with enough space for maybe a briefcase, not even a bag of groceries.
I have actually converted an old diesel land rover to electric. NDA so I can’t disclose the company, but we replaced the transmission with an electric motor that had an adapter plate to the original transfer case. The engine was replaced with a large battery pack and some electric pumps, handfull of heat exchangers. As you said, converting is never as good. A big heavy pack where the motor was makes it more front heavy than with the diesel 4 cylinder, range was about 120 miles which is pretty piss poor compared to what it could do with the diesel powertrain. It was very cool in theory, but not a practical vehicle. Another company has done a different ev conversion on some of the LR’s and they used a Tesla drivetrain if I’m not mistaken, and had to split up the battery pack and spread it across 3 different locations in the vehicle. Purpose built evs are definatley the way for packaging, although repowering classics that only get tooled around here and there to get ice cream or go golfing on the weekend is a neat concept. The weight distribution of the components is just so different from an ice that it necessitates a ground up design. Electric motors are far lighter than ice engines, but they need FAR more weight in battery packs than a tank of fuel for comparable range so u cant exactly just replace the fuel tank with a battery pack and expect it to go far.
why would such work require an nda?
Because the company that “builds” the ev converted vehicle actually just designs and sources parts + the vehicle, our shop is the one that actually built them (at least for the USA based clients). I’m not sure the buyer knows it was done by us or not, I’m sure it doesn’t much matter. There’s only a handful of companies that offer this so it wouldnt be too hard for u to narrow it down to a couple!
Ah. So it’s kind of a secret that they don’t do their own work…
Is it just fancy and expensive cars that do this? I have an old hatchback I’d like to convert, but otherwise it would go to the scrapyard.
Unfortunately the components and labor time make it very cost prohibitive to have somebody do it for you, the only way it makes any financial sense to me is if your capable of doing the conversion yourself. The company we built some evs for only does them for fairly expensive classics so they are not chasing affordability, and for the money u can get a much better ev. With these people ur paying to have a bespoke electrified classic, not necessarily a prectical ev. As the other comment response to you stated a small unibody is very had to convert, and honestly would probably makes more sense to put a more efficient ice engine in. Fwd cars usually have low floor pans so nowhere to put batteries besides in place of the fuel tank or in the engine bay. Then you need to consider how the wheels will get powered, and you start getting into custom machined parts and the cost starts to jump. This is one of those things where it’s a lot easier if somebody has already done it, if your the first on a specific platform your going to have to design ur own systems and parts to make it possible. For example your fwd hatchback doesn’t have a transfer case we can make an adapter plate for and bolt an electric motor to, and most small case fwd transaxles can’t handle the torque of an electric motor so just bolting it to the transmission may not work or last long. It can get pretty complicated pretty quick, not that internal combustion engines necessarily simpler, but the ecosystem they need is already in the car and the cars already been designed around it. Ev drivetrains are also pretty heavy so starting with a small light car is difficult, roll center and center of gravity will be affected, weight added. It may snowball into needing stiffer suspension, larger brakes etc and the car certainly won’t drive the way it did before. Hate to say it but the cost of a custom converversion is likely going to be more than the cost of a slate truck or something lol.
Not the same guy, but I’ve been around a DIY conversion. You can do it to any vehicle you want, but some make more sense than others. Assuming your ‘old hatchback’ is 80s-90s, probably not a great fit. Like he said the whole thing is really a packaging problem, and that’s gonna be rough on a unibody compact. Older, bigger stuff is easier, and I probably wouldn’t bother with something that wasn’t body on frame. The one I observed myself was a 2000-ish Ford Ranger, and that worked out really well. Two large rectangular battery boxes parallel with the driveshaft between the frame rails under the bed, motor in place of engine, controllers etc in extra space under hood. Total cost ~10k, hours hard to guess but a good winter’s worth of weekends
The first company that is able to commodify modular drop-in BEV replacements for ICE vehicles would make a fortune:
Battery packs shaped to slot into engine bays, transmission tunnels and fuel tank cavities.
Individual motors directly into your preferred wheel wells (FWD? RWD? AWD? 4WD? whatever you like).
Drop-in ECU to interface with the existing chassis.
The sort of thing that someone mechanically minded could knock out in their own garage over a weekend or two, or you could get done at a professional shop in a day.
Imagine taking your favourite silhouette, and giving it exactly the range and performance you desire - at the fraction of the cost of a new EV.
There are plenty of places you can do a conversion of older cars to electric. Universal drop in conversions are close to impossible, though, since every manufacturer has its own proprietary footprint that they change every few years.
